The Citadel

The Archive of 'A Song of Ice and Fire' Lore

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Norescon (Boston, MA; September 2-6)

George was on a panel at Worldcon about this exact subject [creating gods in fantasy]. He said that in the real world he doesn't see gods, but he does see religions...and he creates religions, not gods.

The other folks on the panel then went on as to how to make gods-as-characters work in a fantasy world...when George was asked about it later at one of the parties he scoffed - "You can't have gods as characters! That just doesn't work." (paraphrased).

Now, as to whether or not this means gods exist in Westeros is still up for debate. But it seems fairly clear that it means they don't exist as beings that can come down from on high and play with the mortals.

Noreascon (Boston, MA; September 2-6)

[Note: The following is a paraphrase of the reporter's statement.]

Martin officially said that Dunk was not knighted [by Ser Arlan of Pennytree].

Norescon (Boston, MA; September 2-6)

[Note: The following report pulls together several reports on a similar topic for clarity.]

Trebla: Lastly....someone mentioned to me that George stated that he might want to someday write a book about Aegon IV. Does anyone remember George saying that? Again, this is 2nd or 3rd hand info, so I'd like to see if we can clarify it.

Ghost of Nymeria: In the discussion of anti heros, in the tradition of Flashman and etc, he said that he would like to do a book on Aegon the fourth.

Padraig: Yup...GRRM was quite attracted by the idea of writing a book based on the POV of a "villain" like Aegon IV. But I don't think we have to worry about it coming out anytime soon.

Norescon (Boston, MA; September 2-6)

King Maekar I did NOT die in battle against one of King Aegon IV's bastard sons. That shoots down the theory that he died in battle against Bloodraven or Bittersteel.

The King of the Mummers probably will not make an appearence in AFfC but Harry the Heir might. It wil depend on where he decides to end AFfC and begin ADwD.

He likes writing Arianne Martell and Asha Greyjoy and again made the "the women are taking over" statement.

AFfC might not take up the 5 year "gap". He's not sure how long a time the story may encompass.

After reading us the newest Arya chapter, he will probably go back and re-write it. While reading it he found some things he might need to change.

He already has a 3rd Dunk and Egg story written and will probably finish it after he completes AFfC.

Norescon (Boston, MA; September 2-6)

He also said that for A Feast for Crows he had about 1000 pages ready to go. He also said that there was maybe a few hundred that were written but not yet ready and that he was still looking for a way to end the book.

Norescon (Boston, MA; September 2-6)

He related that he had "drastically reworked" the prolougue chapters due to thier inordinate length.

Norescon (Boston, MA; September 2-6)

GRRM is still aiming for six books if he can manage it, which contradicts a prior report that GRRM seemed settled on seven books total.

Prior reports said the Iron Islands and Dornish chapters made up 12 chapters, 7 for one and 5 for the other. Os says it's 7 for the Iron Islands and 5 for Dorne, specifically.

Norescon (Boston, MA; September 2-6)

During his panel on Shared Worlds, GRRM mentioned that he has a deal in hand with the Sci-Fi channel for a pilot for Wild Cards. The contracts are not yet signed, but the ball is in his court. The only details I remember is that the pilot would be two hours and that the long-term plan is for a weekly series. GRRM would not be involved except in the most cursory of fashion. ("My role would be cashing checks").

Norescon (Boston, MA; September 2-6)

[Note: This report is pieced together from several posts by the reporter. It has been slightly edited.]

I did leave a bit early to get a spot in the George R.R. Martin reading. Which I did. Good thing I did because there was a very long line to get into the room, and I am not sure everyone made it in - and it was one of the larger rooms.

....

He read a chapter about Arya, and it was very moving, and well done. It was the first AFfC reading I have been to, I have no idea what chapter it was. He did say that after a reading he is giving in Seattle next week, he isn't going to read anymore new material from the book. He said it was getting to the point where what he was reading to the audiences was just a little behind what he was writing. I think he was also worried about reading the whole book before it was published, negating the need to purchase the book - though he didn't say that. After Seattle he said he would start to re-read chapters that he has already read. He also said he hoped not to be reading from AFfC next year. He wants to do Dance of Dragons next (it was supposed to be #2, then #3, then #4, and now hopefully #5).

He said several things about the book:

He is hoping it will not be as long as the last one - which caused technical problems for publishers in other parts of the world (they had to split it in 2 because of the size). However he said he won't just get to say page 1300 and say "To Be Continued" -- the book has to have an end even though it is part of a larger story arc. He is afraid though that if it is too large his publishers will refuse to publish it (not sure if thats really true or not).

Some of his problems have come because he has introduced new POV characters, and he really likes them. So he has more story to tell. At one point he was going to do a one chapter prolog that incorporated stuff from Dorne, and stuff from the Iron Isles. That became 2 chapters, then 12 (7 for one and 5 for the other). He realized he couldn't have a 250 page prolog that was all about characters that we have never met before, so he had to rip it up and start over. He wove the material in the prolog into the rest of the book. He is also finding that in some places where he was going to have a 5 year gap in when we see a character - that what the character does and learns in those 5 years was too interesting and important to skip over. So the story has grown bigger. The chapter he read today was somthing that he originally planned to skip over and then decided not to.

...

Gaiman won the short story award and had nothing prepared to say, but his didn't say f*ck again. George R. R. Martin presented the award and said he took credit for Gaiman's carreer. Seems he once pitched Martin this story about a character called The Sandman for Martin's anthology series Wild Cards and he rejected it, which led Gaiman to get it published elsewhere and the rest is history. Gaiman said he didn't know what to do with the award - since he was on stage all night, and Martin offered to take it. It ended up on the floor next to the podium.

Bubonicon (Albuquerque, NM; August 27-29)

George didn't mention a page count, but he is clearly frustrated that Feast isn't finished. He did say he was closer than last year, but has no idea when he will be done, since he has been wrong before about it. There were 2 auctions at bubonicon one Friday and one this afternoon in each George had donated a audio book. I won both times, and have a game of thrones and a clash of kings in audio for a mere $40.

...

Lots of jokes about George's big one after they mentioned Connie Willis Hugo's started mostly by Gardner Dozois. From questions on his reading is that he doesn't much believe in the happily ever after endings, he prefers the bittersweet ending much like the Lord of the rings. He did say he plans to continue doing the Egg novellas between novels. During the overrated/underrated panel he said that he felt Nueromancer by Bill Gibson is overated, while being a fine novel doesn't belong on list of top sf novels next to novels like Stars of my destination and another novel I can't recall. On underrated authors he mentioned Jack Vance and Howard Waldrop. also george asked Connie willis about Heinlein being her influence, and it came out that both Connie and George's first sf novel that they read was Have Spacesuit, Will Travel. Right now I'm jealous of the folks going to Worldcon, but I decided on World Fantasy this year. But I am so going to Worldcon in 2006 in LA.

Concerning Theon

Theon won't be in A FEAST FOR CROWS, but that's not to say he won't turn up again in some future volume. He's not dead... though at times he wishes he were.

Concerning the Crakehalls

Mr. Martin, I find the Crakehall family very interesting. It's one of many tidbits that make me want to know more. Will we learn more about House Crakehall in future volumes?

You'll see a few glimpses of Strongboar in FEAST, for what it's worth.

Private Meeting (Santa Fe, NM)

Driving cross country across the U.S. with my parents (my first visit home in 5 years, and since they needed to make the trip, I figured what better than to experience it with them? It also let me see my siblings and extended family), I noticed that I wasn't going to be that far from Santa Fe. So ... long story short, details were sorted out. Very cool.

The drive to Santa Fe was remarkably beautiful. I hadn't realized how high up the city is -- elevation over 7,000 feet! Parts of it reminded me rather a lot of Monterey, California, which also has its roots as a Spanish colonial town. It's a lovely place, and I can see why GRRM and Parris live there. On arriving at GRRMs homes (yes, homes -- one across from the other; each day he takes his "morning commute" over to the house that serves as his office), GRRM came out to say hello. While my parents took off to dinner, GRRM and I went into the office, where I immediately noticed several things:

Miniatures on display. Foreign editions of ASoIaF. All kinds of books, actually, some which looked like references. And the computer on which all the magic happens. I later noticed that he had a lot of the art from the Fantasy Flight Games CCG hung up on the walls around the work area. Wow! As we went to his den (after he called Parris to let her know I had arrived), I commented that I knew people who'd pay to get a look at his place. He casually gestured to a box on a desk and said with a smile that that's what people would really pay for. "That" being -- you guessed it -- the latest partial manuscript of AFfC, ready to be shipped off to his editors for their perusal. I should have touched it, or something.

We chatted for a bit, then Parris arrived. I didn't know it was possible for someone to be so friendly, but Parris managed it. ;) She was tremendously kind, and generous with her praise of the work Linda and I had done with Westeros.org, as well as how great all the Brotherhood are (with particular regards sent Lodengarl's way)!

From there, we went into the older part of Santa Fe, to have dinner at a place called The Bullring. Wonderful food, suffice it to say, and at a great location. Following are some brief snippets amounting to my recollections:

GRRM and Parris are both really pleased with "The Hedge Knight" comic book adaptation, and the work that the Dabel brothers, Ben Avery, and Mike Miller have done.

Comic books were discussed somewhat, and Wild Cards as well. This connects to ASoIaF because GRRM's response regarding how popular Dorne and the Red Viper were among readers was how it was rather the "Boba Fett" effect. He himself had witnessed this in the WC books, when an extremely minor "red shirt" (in this case, a character specifically introduced early in the series to be killed off later on) was killed, only to have a fan club for that character send him an upset letter to him. The character only had one line in all of his appearances!

GRRM's quite pleased with reports of people spending a great deal of time arguing about characters, rather than just plot details (though that, too, is great). Yes, this came out when I was trying to lure him into discussing Stannis and/or Jaime, but he wouldn't indulge me that far. ;)

There are wyverns in the setting, and we'll learn something about them in AFfC. This came out during a discussion of heraldry.

Long ago, someone (LindaElane?) learned from GRRM that his visit to New Zealand and Rotorura park (full of geysers, natural hot springs, bubbling mud, and the smell of sulfur) had inspired a location that would appear in the books. That location hasn't appeared yet, but it will in time. Linda and I are guessing Valyria, or possibly Asshai.

Parris and GRRM were both enthused with how beautifully the Lord of the Rings films came out. We all shared a particular like for the introduction to the second film, with its gorgeous vista of New Zealand's Southern Alps and then its entering through the window to the scene at the Bridge of Khazad-dum. ("Yeah. Gandalf should have stayed dead." -- GRRM) In connection to LOTR, GRRM recalled how popular it was in his college days, and that an expression of that love was the popularity of maps of Middle-earth. You were likelier to see a map than a drawing of a character or a scene. This, he says, shows how Middle-earth was practically a character in its own right in the book. I think he hopes that Westeros is as alive for readers as Middle-earth is, with its castles, ruins, wonders, and history.

GRRM said he wanted to have the series be done at six books -- then noted that Parris said it'd be seven. She grinned rather impishly, nodding her head.

Daemon Blackfyre rebelled so many years after Aegon the Unworthy's death for several reasons. One was his growing resentment at having the status of a bastard, and what it meant. Another was that he gained councillors who urged him to it. Among them was Fireball, a knight of House Ball in the Reach, who had been master-at-arms at the Red Keep during Aegon's days. Aegon promised him a place in the Kingsguard, when an opening made itself apparent, but he died before that could happen. When a spot finally opened up under Daeron, Fireball reminded him of his father's promise ... and was not given a place in the Sworn Brotherhood. GRRM said that Fireball was loosely inspired by Hotspur Percy, hence the name (referring to his fiery temper).

There was no discussion about when AFfC would be finished -- it'd be done when it was done. But as already noted, he is sending manuscripts to his publishers, so it's certainly progressing.

Once dinner was done, we went back to his office, where more cool stuff was shown off. I saw his miniatures displayed, including the Brian Rodden figures that the fans bought for him as presents (he noted that the blue serpent of the Dukes of Milan was his inspiration for making Prince Oberyn the Red Viper), having pride of place with the Robert figure that Parris had commisioned for him. I also saw his Prime Collection, as he called it, which was a copy of every single thing he had ever been published in, in their first editions.

Then it was time to go. It was one of the best meals I've eaten in a very long time, but the company was better. :)

Concerning the Great Bastards

[Note: The following is a mail sent to Les Dabel, of Dabel Brothers Productions, as part of their preparation for adapting an excerpt from "The Sworn Sword" in the second edition of the Hedge Knight graphic novel. Included at the end is a follow-up.]

Do you have LEGENDS II? There's a detailed description of Bloodraven, aka Lord Brynden Rivers, in "The Sworn Sword." He is the most distinctive of the three, an albino with a red winestain birthmark on his neck and cheek that looks (vaguely) like a raven in flight.

Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel, aka Ser Aegor Rivers, are both bastard sons of King Aegon IV (the Unworthy), although Daemon is Targ on both sides, while Bittersteel's mother was a Bracken. Bloodraven is also the king's bastard, by yet another mother.

At the time of the Redgrass Field, Daemon Blackfyre was 26, and his twin sons Aegon and Aemon, who squired for him, were 12. Bittersteel was 24, and Bloodraven 21. This was about thirteen years before "The Hedge Knight." Daemon was very much a Targaryen, albeit bastard born. He had the silver-gold hair, the purple eyes. He looked heroic; tall, muscular, handsome, wide shoulders, flat stomach. A great warrior. Clean-shaven, wears his hair long, like Marvel's Thor. Can be charming and charismatic too, with a winning smile. He used the arms of House Targaryen on his battle standards, but with the colors reversed: a black three-headed dragon on a red field. He'd bear the same sigil on his shield. I can imagine him in gorgeous, ornate plate armor, red and black, black dragon wings sprouting from his helm.

Bittersteel is also imposing in appearance, but since his mother was not a Targ, he does not have the coloring. He has the purple eyes, but his hair is black. A close-cropped beard, hardly more than a shadow. Somewhat of a Conan look to him; not the Frank Frazetta Conan, and definitely not the Arnold Conan, but more the Barry Windsor-Smith Conan, lean and lithe and hard. And angry. Handsome in a dark brooding way, but pissed off at his bastard's lot in life. No smiles here. No-nonsense grey steel armor with a horsehead crest on the helm. His white shield has a grey longsword displayed bendy sinister, with a black dragon's head above and a red horse's head below, both facing out.

Bloodraven is described in "The Sworn Sword," so I won't repeat that here. He's tall and wiry, but sscrawny compared to his magnificent half-brothers. Although a good swordsman, his main weapon is the bow; he has a tall longbow made of weirwood, and fires white weirwood arrows fletched with raven feathers. He is also, by repute, a sorcerer. Sharp features, vaguely sinister.

Also, Bloodraven and Daemon Blackfyre wield swords of Valyrian steel, as does Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard, also prominent in the battle.

You did not have to draw any Valyrian blades in "The Hedge Knight," but now you're got a plethora, it seems. They all have certainly similarities -- the color ranges from smoky grey to almost black, the ripples in the steel -- but each one is unique as well. Bloodraven carries Dark Sister, Corbray has Lady Forlorn, and Daemon fights with Blackfyre, the sword of Aegon the Conquerer and all the Targaryen kings that followed him.

Blackfyre should be somewhat larger and darker than the other two, and its design needs to suggest flames.

...

Don't bother working up those arms for Bittersteel, I've already changed them. Came up with a much cooler image...

So here's Bittersteel: a winged red stallion on a golden field. Only the horse has big black dragon wings instead of the usual Pegasus-style feathered angel wings, and he's snorting fire.

Boskone (Boston, MA; February 13-15)

Other meta-information, from the Q&A session: GRRM is at about 1000 pages; he anticipates maybe 300 more. He hasn't decided whether or not Bran will appear in AFfC, but if so will only appear briefly. Jon and Dany will be the two focal characters of AFfC (in the sort of way in which Ned was the focal character of AGoT). He's not averse to writing more stories in the ASoIaF world after he finishes the series (which perhaps may look more like seven books), but won't write direct sequels to the series. Future Dunk and Egg stories will be getting darker. (No detail was given as to when the next D&E story could appear.)

And both GRRM and Parris were wearing the Brotherhood T-shirts. I wish I'd remembered to wear mine.

...

Bran: somebody had asked whether the Starks would appear, and whether they would be a focus. GRRM mentioned Sansa and Arya, and said "of course Catelyn won't appear again" [this was previously known], and said "Jon also, if you consider him a Stark" [this was greeted with a lot of laughter]. He didn't explicitly mention Bran, so somebody asked whether Bran would appear in AFfC. GRRM's response was that Bran is one of the characters in training, and so at most he'll get a chapter or two, but that he hadn't decided yet. (He made a throwaway joke about kung-fu movies at this point.)

So, I think that Bran will play (at most) a minor role in AFfC, but he'll be back in future books. GRRM said explicitly that he doesn't like writing "training" chapters (hence the kung-fu references).