The Citadel is an archive of information for George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire.
New to the series? Read our spoiler-free review of A Game of Thrones.
[Note: The following is a response from Parris, George's partner, regarding the Comic-Con reports which seemed to believe the pilot was greenlit.]
I hate to have to tell you this, but the reports coming out of ComicCon that the pilot for HBO's GEORGE RR MARTIN'S 'A SONG OF ICE & FIRE: A GAME OF THRONES' will be filmed in the summer of 2007 are wildly optimistic.
Here's the current status of HBO GRRMs' ASoI&F:AGOT as far as we know today, Februrary 27th, 2007.
The writers/producers, David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, are, as all writers who are WGA members must, waiting for the formal contracts, deals, and options to be completed. Then they'll begin work on the first major draft of the pilot script.
Once that first draft is finished, they'll submit it to HBO and then, sometime, maybe in a week, maybe in a month, they'll get Notes.
Then they'll do a second draft, and repeat the process until HBO is satisified and gives them the green light to start pre-production.
So let me clarify for everyone, that there is not much of a possibility that we'll see even the beginning of pre-production this summer.
David Benioff and his wife, Amanda Peet, just celebrated the birth of their first child, born on Feb 20th.
I'd also like to correct an earlier post about WILD CARDS - Melinda Snodgrass has developed an independent new script based in the Wild Cards universe. But it is not for a televison series.
My first stop was the George R. R. Martin session. He began things by stating the rules: no asking who dies, what happens at the end, and when the next book is coming out. He announced that they're re-releasing his book The Armageddon Rag (the book that "nearly ended" his career and sent him to exile in Hollywood). He also announced that Tor will be releasing three new Wildcards books. And, of course, he announced (for anyone who didn't already know it) the deal with HBO to do a set of Song of Ice and Fire miniseries. The one difference in this announcement is that while the original stories that came out indicated that the miniseries would be produced for sometime next decade to coincide with the ending of the heptology, Martin today indicated that the producers were working on a pilot episode now with the intent that HBO would pick it up and start on season one next year. He is very, very happy about the HBO deal, btw, gushing over the quality of television that HBO is producing and saying this was really the only good choice for getting Song produced in the visual media.
Some other bits of info from Q&A: In Song, he considers Bran the hardest viewpoint character to write, while Tyrion is the easiest. The Red Wedding was partly based on a historical event in Scotland called the Black Dinner. His biggest lament in splitting A Feast for Crows from A Dance with Dragons is the parallels he was drawing between Circe and Daenerys. He credits the creative success on Wildcards to the system that they put in place, making all authors sign an agreement at the outset and establishing a point system that gave creators extra distribution of profits for use of their characters in the works of other authors (thus encouraging them to let others play with their creations, making the shared universe cohesive).
On the shooting of a pilot it did seem like it was definate that they would do one but I don't remember him ever specifying "quot;this summer"quot;. He also said he was happy that it was HBO because of the odds of it happening. GRRM said if HBO "quot;develop"quot; 5 shows 3 will be used.
Also, as I said in the "quot;New POV"quot; thread, GRRM kept referring to the new POV as "quot;He"quot;. As in "quot;He will be the last new POV"quot;.
[Note: Thanks to Relic for bringing this to our attention, and to Stag Lord/Chris for providing additional details.]
Some notes form the George RR Martin signing and Q&A that I thought would be of general interest to the community:
A: I was able to distribute every single promo card, play mat/poster and demo deck/rules set within about twenty minutes of my arrival. People seemed genuinely impressed by the art and happy to have cards like Ilyn Payne, Jon Snow, Ghost, and Harrenhall. I was even asked by tow people for demo decks after I had given them all out. It was very encouraging but whether or not it will bear fruit in terms of the local play group remains to be seen.
B. One of the questions Martin fielded was about whether or not he was happy with the ancillary art surrounding AsoIaF. He said that although he wasn’t crazy about the response time of some artists on the comic books, he was thrilled with the job FFG is doing. He talked about how he is aware that "people love the card game and the board game" and the most frustrating thing for him has been with other licensees like Guardians of Order and Testors. He now owns all stocl on the RPG stuff since Guardians bit the dust and he really wants to see the miniatures game get to market -- he seemed annoyed with Testors for how long they are taking. So kudos to FFG -- he was very positive about the work you gushy are doing.
C, He said about the HBO series: Its in development, which means there is nothing like a timetable for when (or if) we will see the series. But he is very optimistic about it getting the go ahead -- they will be shooting the pilot over the summer for submission to and approval by the brass at HBO, and if all goes well there, they will really go into high gear on the series we are all so excited about. He seemed really, really pumped to get going on this adaptation.
D. There will be a new PoV in Dance -- but he isn’t saying who. This will be the last new PoV we get for the series and he expects the current list to be culled down as the story progresses.
E. His dragons have no front limbs -- just rear legs and wings. He said that although the traditional depiction of dragons as six limbed creatures has become a staple of fantasy -- the fact that no animal in nature has ever evolved in such a way always bothered him. As a sci-fi writer originally, he insists on the depiction of the dragons with just four limbs. I never heard that before and though it was pretty neat.. In addition, he said that although AsoIaF dragons are intelligent, they cannot speak and will never evolve into the sort of dragons we see in Tolkien or Le Guin. Specifically he said’ Drogon is never going to share witty aphorisms with Dany. The Targaryens rule by Fire and Blood and that is what the dragons represent in the story". I guess the power icon is more Nedly for them than some of us thought when they were first rolled out back in AfoD.
F. Cersei and Daenerys are intended as parallel characters --each exploring a different approach to how a woman would rule in a male dominated, medieval-inspired fantasy world.
G. He is getting a lot of interest in his Wild Cards series. Specifically I think there are new books coming out and there is a possibility of that being developed for TV as well. He isn’t sure how this is going to fly though in the wake of Heroes -- which apparently is very similar in concept. Either Heroes will open the door for Wild Cards, or it will close it entirely. I’m no really into either -- but I figured a lot of you would be interested in this tidbit.
H. When asked about ideal casting choices, he formally endorsed the idea of Nicole Kidman playing Cersei. He says she has the perfect look for her. But it would never work, because where are you going to find a guy that looks like her to play Jaime? I really got a kick out of that. He also said Ron Perelman would be perfect as the Hound -- but I am pretty sure I had hears or read that somewhere before.
I think that’s all the really important stuff. Somehow I really felt responsible to the CCG community to get back to you guys with some notes form today’s event. If it bores anyone I apologize. However, I urge anyone who gets a chance to go to one of his signings or talks to do so. He is very entertaining and very down to earth. This is the second time I have seen him and would definitely do so again.
He didn't talk about budgets at all.
While talking about how HBO is the perfect medium for the series, h e mentioned Rome and Deadwood several times as examples of how HBO is best equipped to get the look, fell and themes of his work in place without having to cut much of anything.
Just to follow up and reiterate (because I really don't wnat to start any rumors or get anyones hopes up too much) please make it clear - we are still a long way from seeing anything. HBO will see the pilot and decide where we go from there. Although I did get the impression that this part of the project is moving ahead very quickly - Mr. Martin was very matter of fact about it, and I am just worried I heard what I wnated to hear.
I don't want to get anyone's hopes up too high is all I am saying. I love Mr Martin and I love the community.Please make it clear that alhtough I stand by what I worte - we are still very very far of form seeing anything.
OK, just to make this an actual Con report, I'll report on the only panel I was able to attend: The Increasing Rift Between Fans and Pros.
On the panel was Steve Miller, one of the Boskone organizers, Gay Haldeman and GRRM. The panel itself turned into a rather pointed criticism of most professional writers (which naturally angered the professional writers in the audience, as I heard a few bitching to each other after the panel), who think rather highly of themselves and sequester themselves from their audience. The panelists did make the concession that a WorldCon is a different beast from other Cons (in that a shitload of business and flesh-pressing with editors/publishers happens at WorldCon, and doesn't leave most authors a lot of time to socialize), but they were all pretty critical of authors who never showed up to the party floor at a smaller Con.
GRRM's quote that stands out: "There are, what, 50 or more professional writers here at this convention, and I only saw a handful of them on the party floor last night."
(for the record, I remember seeing Daniel Abraham and Gay Haldeman and meeting Nick Mamatas -- at least I think I did. I was pretty hungover at that point. There were at least 4 or 5 others I recognized, but I cannot remember their names. Anyone want to help me out? Which writers did y'all see either Friday or Saturday night?)
I might as well add that it looks like GRRM has a good bit left to write. He is still suggesting that he might add other POVs from aFfC into aDwD but it still depends on how big aDwD will be without these chapters. Since he isn't sure as of now, he clearly has a good few chapters to write. He is currently on the prologue. He is apparently finding it difficult to get right and has made several attempts at it already.
Parris did say that the renovations are done now and they just have to move back in everything. So things are better on that front. She also said that he is anxious to get back into aDwD when they return from Comicon but I know some people will never believe those declarations.
... When we returned to the room, George was already there, as was Daniel Abraham. They were discussing M. John Harrison and his recent essay on worldbuilding. When asked my opinion, I simply said:
"I think he's a pretentious snot."
Daniel agreed, though he admitted to omitting the "snot" part. George, as per usual, kept his own counsel, though he seemed to enjoy the opinions, and did defend Viriconium a bit. This led into a conversation about Tolkien, of course. I do not know if there is anyone who respects Tolkien more than George, and he made some points that would probably have shut Harrison up, had he been there to hear them. (Though he did not aim them at Harrison, per se.)
[Note: The question being asked is whether there is anything that fans can do to improve the odds of HBO putting the proposed "A Song of Ice and Fire" series into production.]
For what it's worth, I asked George your question on the Friday night, Ran. He said that at this point it's up to the writers to develop and deliver a great script, and even after that it may just get to the pilot and HBO can still say no. We can just keep being supportive, but there's not really a write-in campaign or anything that we can do to help directly.
[Note: The following report comes from Kiran Bellubbi's SmallDoses blog.]
Yesterday Karen and I spent 45 mins listening to George R R Martin talk about his writing philosophy, how he channels his thoughts on a particular story he is writing and what influences his stories from the real world. Both of us were introduced to George R R Martins work by our good friend Amit Rathore - who has read a LOT of fantasy fiction. I was always hessitant to get into reading fantasy sci-fi since I always thought it was too time consuming (gigantic epics all of them) and my friends tended to fixate on characters in these epic books and the character would live on forever and conquer one and then conquer all.
When I started reading the Song of Ice and Fire (which was about a year ago) I was introduced to a new kind of fantasy fiction that George R R Martin gave to the world - one that still holds some roots in reality. The Worlds described by him are alien and unnatural but the characters seem so REAL! Well - anyways - you should really read the books. I guarantee you will enjoy them.
Something interesting that GRRM mentioned in his chat with fans yesterday was that for him Ideas were Easy but words were really difficult. He stated that sometimes he spends upto 3 days on introducing a known character into a room - "How should the walls look?", "who notices him/her first?", "how do the people in the room react?" etc.
Finally, GRRM spoke about a guy he met at a convention who wanted to do "business" with him - he apparently had this "great idea" for a fantasy series and wanted to get GRRM to "write it up" so they could "share the profits".
What do you say when you meet someone with this disease?
I was talking with Grogmosh Longspear, Elgereron(sp) the Nightraven and Maltaran before the reading as we were some of the first ones there. We talked about the books and I showed them the questions from the board. Maltaran liked the Davos question and ended up asking it. Coyote's Daughter showed up as well as Fillipa. I met Chataya, Mak and Kalbear.
Then we all went in for the reading once Kevin J. Anderson's crew got out. He commented that he should have brought beer too to get this many people as George outdid him by about 60 or so. George arrived a little late and read Jon 1 after offering us Davos 1 and Tyrion 1. Ran was sitting right next me and raised his hand for Davos 1. I leaned over and said, "Dude, you were the first one to post a summary of that from the hard copy we received."
Question and Answer
I asked why the Targaryens waited so long after the Doom to invade?
GRRM said they were mostly just content on Dragonstone for awhile. Aegon's grandfather and father stayed there. Aegon was the one that chose to invade and conquer Westeros. The Volentenes tried to entice him into a Grand Alliance to conquer Valyria, I think, or all the Valyrian colonies. Conquer the East I'm sure. Aegon was very young when this offer came to him.
Someone asked about he creates novels and he gave his architect and gardener speech. That is covered in detail in the SSM if anyone wants to check it out.
Maltaran asked why Davos smuggled the onions and George said it was for profit. I wasn't sure if this was a joke or not but he said Davos saw a bunch of starving guys who did have some gold and saw an opportunity to make a good profit with some cheap onions.
A person asked if the reader reaction's surprise him. He said some of the reactions to characters surprise him. Sandor is very popular and Theon has some fans too.
Bittersteel was asked about by Chataya. He went over a lot of stuff already covered in the SSM then said that the Golden Company wants or wanted to overthrow the reigning lineage of Targs as they consider them usurpers. Interesting implications for ADWD.
Will the rest of the books have all the characters? Yes, he hopes to have all the characters together in the same book after ADWD. He said he has to kill some off though which garnered laughs.
Anymore art books?
Look for the World of Ice and Fire. And I think it was Linda that was saying we will get to post questions and do some sort of poll as to which get asked of George for the book. That will be done on the board.
Sorry I didn't get to ask more questions but George only called on me once and I won't ask him at parties as he said he doesn't like that so much.
The most interesting stuff however, and IMO, was in the Q&A. JT asked George why the Targaryens waited so long to invade Westeros, and he said that mostly they had just been happy to sit on their rock. It was Aegon who had the ambition ... and there had been temptations to go east, rather than west, with various Free Cities trying to lure him to their side on their interminable wars (JT has copious notes, and he'll do a better job -- my PDA went on the fritz and I couldn't copy anything down, but I did video it on the camera and with any luck the sound quality should be sufficient to transcribe any other interesting details). A grand alliance was involved in some fashion.
Oh ... and George doesn't seem to have known that Darkstar isn't very popular. ;) He thought that a "bad boy" character would go over well, since people seem to love the Hound and even Theon Greyjoy so very much. We will probably have to have a discussion about this at the BwB party. ;)
Here are some recollections from GRRM's panel on Friday (I apologize if these have been previously reported):
- The spoiler chapter he read was the same as this one.
- GRRM realized that AFFC was going to be too unwieldy when his prologue alone weighed in at 200-250 pages. He then chopped the book in two, introduced a new PoV, and weaved the prologue into the main story.
- When asked about killing PoV's off in the near future, GRRM commented that he managed to keep the number of PoV characters fairly steady until AFFC, when he introduced several and didn't kill of any.
An amusing incident from Saturday... Veira called me on my cell phone (thanks Veira!) and told me that GRRM was signing comics at a booth but no one was around. I had yet to meet him, so I quickly rushed over. GRRM was there signing preview copies of the Fevre Dream comic with no one paying any attention to him. Unlike his other signings, this one had not been publisized at all and there was nothing at the booth mentioning GRRM at all.
Alright, I am the designated reporter for the brunch. I made the same mistake I made for my first two signings and didn't take notes for most of the brunch until we thought of the report and I got some pen and paper and jotted down all we could remember of what was said previously, as well as putting down everything else that came after. Hopefully, this will jog some other people's memories and they can add some stuff I missed, especially Jaehaerys who will now be known as the Questioner because of his fearless barrage of varied questions to George.
I'll leave the book tidbits for last as I am a book junkie and I always like to save the best for last.
The attendees were George, Blackfyre Heir, Bronn Stone and gf Yelena, KatieG, Veira, Xavier, Jaehaerys and his wife, and myself.
I arrived early and hung out in the lobby after checking to see that our reservation was in place. Bronn Stone and Yelena came in then we chatted for awhile. Then George arrived followed by Blackfyre Heir soon after. Then Xavier arrived and Jaehaery and his wife. We went upstairs to find KatieG and Veira in the brunch lobby.
The food was fabulous. I told George it was like a feast from ASOIAF. George replied he hoped they didn't play the "Rains of Castamere."
We discussed the RPG and how it is going under. Some of their freelancers have not been paid.
George is not pleased that Roy Dotrice was left out of the AFFC audiobook. Roy had other committments and the suits didn't want to wait for him; they wanted to get the audiobook out at the same time.
Blackfyre Heir and KatieG were displeased with Testors and how they cashed their checks/credit cards but didn't send them the goods. Evidently, the guy who did the work is the best in the business.
George is enthusiastic about the Giant's prospects but not so much for the Jets though he thinks they are not the worst in the NFL.
George is excited about Subterranean Press.
George thinks an HBO series of miniseries' would be best for the book. All offers must come through him and he is open to something.
George wants us to go easy on Terry Goodkind. His webmaster said to George, "If you can't something say something nice, don't say anything at all" to which George responded, "Am I Thumper?"
We talked about the fandom and its diversity, how we're pretty even in our male to female ratio (the brunch was 5 to 4 male). Lodengarl and Aghrivaine were mentioned and how Aghrivaine is a flake smiley2.gif (He didn't make it to the brunch).
He is looking forward to getting back to work and not really looking forward to it. He wants to work but dreads looking at the blank screen.
ComicCon is a humongous affair with 100,000 people IIRC. WorldCon got to 8,000 in 1984 and everyone freaked. So they toned it down and that was as high as it ever got. As a professional, George would want WorldCon to be bigger but he likes the smallness as a fan. He knows about the chess match we are planning. BH said that it slipped out. George is not sure what team he will take and he gets to choose who he will play.
For those that volunteer at WorldCon, George will give a collectible ASOIAF item. We know but we'll never tell. smiley2.gif Now you can all speculate on what it is.
He is meeting with DC comics today about a Wildcards comic. The new WildCards are not set in comic book time so they will have new characters. George wrote the Turtle, Xavier, Popinjay, Desmond and the Body Snatcher.
He liked working on Windhaven with Lisa Tuttle but the time has past for a sequel though he pushed for it when the time was right.
Dajamieson will run the trivia contest so my chances went up by about a factor of about, oh, infinity.
George regrets that Cersei and Dany will not be contrasted directly. I told him of how some dedicated boarders try to defeat him and piece together a timeline. George replied that he tries to keep it vague.
He likes the extra breathing room to flesh out the characters. Bran didn't have any chapters and Dany's ending was different. Now he likes the way she ended. I think he actually may be doing more with Dany.
He repeated that some characters from Feast will come in at the end of ADWD.
I told George that when he changed Viserys I from a son to a brother he created an error in that Baelor's sisters did not inherit the throne after him, George replied that women came after all men in the Targaryen succession after TDWD. Something interesting and neatly explains Daena and the rest not becoming queen.
To settle an old debate on EZBoard, any king can make a knight but any lord cannot. That lord must be a knight as well. So Baelor I could make knights but Eddard could not. George said the more important thing for kings is making lords. The problem is giving lands.
[Note: The struck claim below is being kept in to highlight the fact that it is struck. The original submitter has come forward to admit that GRRM did not state this, and that it was his own insertion. We are very disappointed, and offer our apologies for offering an erroneous report, especially one on such an important matter to fans who have wondered about this particular topic and have been misled by this entry in the So Spake Martin.]
To all those who doubted, Azor Ahai Reborn and the prince that was promised are two versions of the same prophesied savior/redeemer that is supposed to come.
And the biggest tidbit, in my humble opinion, is:
SPOILER: Possible for ADWD
The second Dance of Dragons does not have to mean Dany's invasion.
Geroge stopped himself short and said he shouldn't say anymore. The response came because of my question of whether the dance would take place in ADWD because AFFC and ADWD parallel. So now my friends, speculate away.
That was all I wrote down or remembered. Hopefully others will come up with stuff. Thanks BH for getting this thing together. It was nice to meet all of you and I look forward to seeing most of you at Worldcon (make it up for the party Saturday Jaehaerys).
[Note: The following post refers to the re-release of GRRM's novella, "The Ice Dragon", as a children's novel from Tor's Starscape imprint. It discusses claims that the story has been relocated to Westeros and the changes that had to made to it to be suitable for a younger audience.]
Martin was asked about this on one of the panels I saw him on at San Diego Comic-Con. He didn't indicate that it was part of Westeros at all. In fact he said it was based on an old story that he wrote.
He also didn't really say it was a kid's story, but that it was modified to be one. To be specific, he said, "I just had to edit out > the brutal rape and it was good to go." He also said that the editors had pressed him to give them something else along similiar lines, and he couldn't come up with anything with as sweet a tone...
Just so everyone knows where on the page I am, I've read the first two books and have the third sitting in the "to read" pile although I'm re-reading the second. The fourth I have to wait to come out in paper, until/unless I get a job. The names of the books, as I told [info]electorprince play tag with each other in my head so it's just easier to call them "first book", "second book" etc. Or I'll have to make up a little mnemonic sentence.
He started by answering everyone's number one question, that he doesn't know when the new book will be out. He's aiming to hand them to the publishers by the end of the year, and after that it's out of his hands. The British publishers manage to consistently put the book out a month before the Yanks though.
The concoction of this book involved splitting the fourth book into two because he'd gone so long, revising and expanding it.
He said that if you want to know all he knows about publication dates and the like, go to his web site (http://www.georgerrmartin.com). Don't believe Amazon, your local bookseller, the rumour mill etc, go to his website and that's the truth right there.
He then proceded to read for about 45 minutes. The scene ended with Melisendre talking to Jon Snow. She observes that it's cold today and he says it's always cold on the Wall. "Do you think it?" she asks. "I know it," he answers. "Then you know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispers.
At the Q&A session, the first question asked was how he'd come up with the idea for this monstrous series. GRRM said that the first chapter of the first book "just came to him" with all the characters and situations involved. He was actually writing another book, Avalon, which of course ended up never being written. His Hollywood work slowed him down with "Game of Thrones" but when he finally got back to it it was still fresh and vivid in his mind, unlike other works he'd had to take hiatuses from in the past.
He was asked about how he balanced killing off characters with keeping readers involved with the surviving ones. GRRM admitted that he likes outraging readers. "Writing is all about emotion," he said, as reading is for vicarious intense situations. He likes to read books that engage his emotions and so likes to write them. He wants the reader to be almost afraid to turn the page, in order to establish that he plays for keeps and no character is safe. He started doing this in the Wild Cards series.
He was asked about viewpoint characters, of which there are many. He said that even for minor viewpoint characters he gives them a few chapters so that he is telling a story about that character and not just using them for point of view.
GRRM warned that we should expect a sizable body count soon, as he's been introducing characters without killing any of them off.
One of the people asking questions was Army, and has just gotten back from Iraq. He thanked GRRM for all he'd written and GRRM thanked *him*. The question was on how GRRM came up with the characters, and GRRM said ultimately, he is all of them. At this point some wag in the audience chimed up with "Cersei?" GRRM said that of course he's never been a woman, or a dwarf, or an 11 year old girl, although he has been a fat guy. He said it was necessary to try to see the world through their eyes although ultimately as humans the only person we ever really know is ourselves. This character development is why the books don't come out once a month.
On being asked about "the casting game" (picking actors to play the characters), he said the only one who he would definitely choose was Ron Perlman to play Sandor "The Hound" Clegane because of Perlman's aptitude for acting through prosthetics. Child actors are hard to find, good ones at least, and Tyrion would be the most difficult adult to cast because of the very small pool of talent who are dwarves.
He said Arya may appear at the end of book 5.
As for his writing process, he starts every day with his morning coffee, sits down, and tweaks what he wrote the day before. That usually gives him the momentum to keep going. Some days he "falls in through the computer screen" and next thing he knows it's dark and the coffee is still there and cold. On the other hand, some days he just checks his e-mail over and over.
He assured us that we will someday find out how seasons work in his world, and that it will not be a scientific explanation because hello, it's a fantasy novel. He said that some fans have written him with fantastic explanations involving two suns, one of which is a black dwarf but that they will be disappointed.
Finally, he said he'd love to see, say, an HBO mini-series, but would HBO love to see it?
The Westeros network consists of several different sites, including a forum and a wiki, for all your A Song of Ice and Fire needs.